roberthahn 2 days ago

I think you’re off by an order of magnitude. With those numbers, a 12” board would expand and contract 1.2”, and an 8’ long board would vary by almost an inch.

Much more reasonable would be 1% across the grain and 0.1% along it. You can confirm this in some of the wood movement calculators found online.

To those learning about wood movement, these ratios are decent but approximate; if you end up caring about these things you’ll want to check the species of the lumber you plan to work with.

1
DannyBee 2 days ago

Serious woodworker here:

They aren't off by that much. You are further off if you assume some standard parameter ranges :)

But in the end, it depends on factors i didn't see listed.

Overall, the percents are usually calculated by swelling coefficient. Swelling coefficient is percent change in radial/tangential for each 1 percent of moisture change. There are well-known sources for these that calculated them in sane ways. The US forest service is one of them, and they publish their methodologies/etc for how they determine them. See, e.g., https://wfs.swst.org/index.php/wfs/article/download/1004/100...

Take standard flat sawn red oak. The swelling coefficient is 0.001-0.002 for radial (0.1% per 1%), and 0.004-0.005 for tangential (0.4% per 1%).

So in initial drying, which is usually 30%->15%, it will move 1.5-3% radial and 6-7% tangential.

Without humidity control, houses swing from 30%<->60%. Sometimes per day, sometimes per month, sometimes per season. So even more than initial drying. But because the swing varies, depending on thickness/etc, how much moisture change you get in the wood, and how fast, will vary a lot.

If you assume it causes a 10% change in moisture content over the year, throughout the wood, we get 1-2% radial movement, and 4-5% tangential movement for red oak. But that is both swelling and shrinking, not solely one or the other.

So the GP would be off by a factor of 2 in one, but not off in the other.

It's obviously trickier in practice to calculate the actual rates because the moisture is going to diffuse through the wood at some rate, and as long as the RH is changing faster than the diffusion rate, the wood will not really have a consistent moisture content all the way through. To be accurate, you'd have to slice it into enough pieces to capture the different moisture levels in the wood, apply the coefficients to each slice, and, etc. Worse, because boards are rarely square, and instead often much wider than they are thick (IE 12"x1") , you'd have to slice and calculate it one way to deal with this for radial, and slice and calculate it the other way to deal with tangential.

I'm too lazy to calculate how coarse/fine of a slice you'd need to get within say 5% of the "real" number.

I'm also assuming you are trying to do it by hand, since this is obviously an integral of some sort that you could also just directly solve. I'm sure it's in a paper somewhere.

This is all for bare wood too, with no topcoats. The topcoat would seriously affect absorption rates, etc, even assuming you applied it to all sides.

Nobody does any of this calculation in practice, we just accept large error bars and build floating tables :)

aaronax 2 days ago

30-60% RH range in a house surely must not be this strongly related to moisture content of wood? ("10% change in moisture content over the year")

https://www.wagnermeters.com/moisture-meters/wood-info/how-r...

This table shows up to a 4% moisture content seasonal difference in a climate controlled house (20-50% RH).

DannyBee 2 days ago

I can't tell where their data comes from, and they don't cite it.

The 10% number was not meant to be real, i just was giving an example :)

Real is much harder.

4% is not a horrible guess from as best i can calculate (but see below because this page has some crazy claims). Studies suggest that wood RH tracks RH pretty closely, slowing down with depth. Transport also appears to depends on temperature, independent of humidity itself. But if you assume it's going to track RH closely and throw out the rest, you can just assume the wood will always fall within the EMC range for the RH range.

If you look at

https://www.fpl.fs.usda.gov/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr282/chapte...

You can see that between 30-60% RH, you really don't get more than like a 7% span (i'm eyeballing it) of EMC that the wood could vary around at any temperatures likely to exist in your house.

So 4% is probably not a horrible guess.

However,the site you link to says some very wrong things, interestingly:

"Temperature Has No Significant Effect on Wood MC"

This is 100% wrong, in more ways than one.

First actually even wrong if you ignore humidity entirely, because studies suggest wood moisture transport changes at high/low temperatures, even ignoring humidity. The exact mechanisms are not pinpointed (AFAICT from skimming), but that's what real data says.

Second, the temperature affects the EMC (and relative humidity).

It's very weird for them to go on and on about how humidity affects would but then say temperature doesn't matter at at all.

You can't actually separate these things, and say humidity level matters but temperature doesn't, because they are linked.

If you want real data/simulations to try to figure out more, here's some references - i didn't read all of them, busy morning, but i did at least look at most of them.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S12962...

https://gupea.ub.gu.se/handle/2077/54179

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3263/8/10/378

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8320951/

HPsquared 2 days ago

Given limited absorption rates, does that mean varnish etc helps keep the internal moisture content more steady over time (and therefore less variation across the wood internally as well)?

DannyBee 1 day ago

It depends on how vapor permeable they are. Some of them are good at resisting liquid water but not vapor, and some are good at resisting both.

But all things being equal, yes, they generally can only help keep moisture content more steady over time.