"if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone somewhere on the largest stage in the world (the public web) that someone will disapprove of" -> is this a concern for many men? It's never crossed my mind or been a problem for anyone I've known.
"they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them in the breakroom or geographical space" -> I've always talked to people at work and also I joined the most socially awkward hobby I've ever seen (historical sword fencing) and people are still very chatty. I also recently started volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitator and find myself just constantly chatting.
"Can't have real ties or any strongly held beliefs, that would make you religious (or worse, Religious on an actual religion), those people are bad" -> I've been friends with a lot of religious people but also non-religious people have strongly held beliefs (I hang out with a lot of vegans and I cannot imagine claiming they are afraid to publicly hold strong beliefs).
I think your post just goes to show how different mens' experiences can be because, while I'm sure a lot of men probably can connect with this, my personal experiences could not be more opposite. I think it depends a ton on the sorts of crowds you run in, it almost sounds to me like the people you meet are generally judgy and antisocial but I've found people I'm around to be generally friendly (though I've found many people are happy to chat but are often hard to actually organize to otherwise hang out since people in their 30s are busy and some of my friends have kids now).
> is this a concern for many men? It's never crossed my mind or been a problem for anyone I've known.
Not for me, I have been to plenty of meetups in my city. If you're not liked or don't get along with the others, the worst that can happen is that you'll be politely ostracized. The paranoia about being publicly "cancelled" seems very overblown.
Well we already have people on this page commenting on the demograpic represented on the submitted web site. Yes, in today's world there are almost always people looking to play "gotcha" and will try to pin you as a racist, misogynist, homophobe, or some other sort of bigot or pariah.
How would that apply in a real life setting? You're assuming that busy people would take time out of their day to attend a social event in person to nitpick the demographic makeup of said event instead of making friendly banter. How often has that happened at social events you've attended?
Anecdotally, when I lived in Victoria BC (a very lefty city) this did actually happen at events I went to more than once. I didn't go to events much so unless I just was unlucky to witness this sort of thing more than once, it was frequent
For what it is worth, I didn't think the complainers went out of their way just to complain, they did have a genuine interest in the events. They just also liked to complain about the demographics and steer the groups towards things that would make us "more inclusive"
It always ended the same way: the group mostly dissolved
Ok, but it still seems to be quite rare? I don’t live in the woods or anything and I’ve never been the victim of a “gotcha.” I’ve definitely offended people on various occasions (which I mostly felt bad about), but none of those people ever felt so strongly they tried to ruin my life over it. Nor have I ever known anyone that was “gotcha”-ed as you described.
I unfortunately have known people that have died in car crashes, which is very tragic, but I don’t refuse to drive anywhere as a result. There’s no data on this but I suspect we have far more car deaths than we do individuals who have been socially ostracized as a result of someone spinning their comments as racist/misogynistic/etc…
Basically, it seems like a bad way to run your life. “I might get hit by lightning, better not go outside.”
I think the "They might 'gotcha' me and then cancel me as a [racist/sexist/bigot/etc]" fear is overblown and comes mostly from people chronically online and people who care what randos on Twitter write. Yes, the Internet is full of keyboard warriors just waiting to catch you saying something they can twist into some -ism, but these people don't exist in real life, or at least they keep their opinions to themselves in real life. I personally don't care what random people on the Internet think. They might be over there on Twitter canceling me as a racist or sexist right now, and it doesn't affect my life even slightly.
> I think the "They might 'gotcha' me and then cancel me as a [racist/sexist/bigot/etc]" fear is overblown
Even if someone films you saying something, unless it's something that's offensive to enough people for it getting out to actually impact your life... what are they going to do with it? Real life is not infested by these hyper-politically-correct boogeymen people seem to fear. Nobody really cares.
Don't go around saying stuff that would disgust your grandma/boss/etc in such a way that they'd feel the need to distance themselves from you, and what power does anyone really hold here?
The only way I can really take this as a legitimate worry is someone asking for a space where they can say overtly [racist/sexist/bigoted/etc] things without consequence in which case... yeah, there might be consequences. But then at least be honest and just say "I want to start a racism club." instead of trying to convince us all the boogeyman is real.
And hell, even if someone catches you calling an autistic 5 year old black kid racist names... just start a GiveSendGo and apparently people will just give you almost a million dollars for your trouble.
Fact is that in a social situation, you don't get to decide how you're viewed. If someone says you're being a jerk, then in their eyes, you're being a jerk. You can't change society or whatever so that they don't view you as a jerk. It's not up to you how they view you. This is not a flaw with society, it is by design. By definition it is how socialization works, and it goes both ways.
You DO, however, control your own words and actions, and generally those have a strong correlation with how you're perceived. Food for thought.
> is this a concern for many men? It's never crossed my mind or been a problem for anyone I've known
Yes, I talk to an older guy, probably mid-50s, at my gym. He completely stopped helping women at the gym or even giving advise. To my knowledge, no one ever accused him of anything, but he acknowledge that he absolutely have no experience talking to or otherwise interacting with younger women. He is terrified of doing or saying something wrong and lose access to the only gym in town, so he simply avoided women at the gym. He helps out the men, young and old, just not women.
> he absolutely have no experience talking to or otherwise interacting with younger women.
A sad fact of life, but at 50, most men aren't attractive to women 10 years younger than them, and it becomes pretty awkward and socially unacceptable to do anything that could be interpreted as flirting.
Now I don't know about the situation in gyms in the US, maybe the situation is extreme there. But generally speaking, I don't find it particularly sad if people mind their own business in the gym.
> I don't find it particularly sad if people mind their own business in the gym.
But that is part of the whole loneliness issue isn't it. I can certainly understand people wanting to just do their workout, but it's one less source of interaction between people. We don't talk to be people at the supermarket, we don't talk to people waiting for the bus, we'd rather listen to a podcast during our workout, than talk to the guy sitting on the next bench.
Very anecdotally: I'm fairly introvert, but have issues not talking, so I'll fairly regularly talk to random people. Some people will clearly prefer to be left alone, but frequently people smile and light up and start talking about all sorts of random stuff.
From a guy's point of view, initiating a conversation with a random woman anywhere, not just in the gym, is fraught with peril, and probably not worth it. The difference between "flirting" and "creepy" is entirely in the mind of the recipient, and if you initiate a conversation, you really have no control over how it's interpreted. The downside can be pretty bad if it's received poorly.
I'm exceedingly grateful I'm already married and don't have to put up with this minefield anymore!
IMO this mostly stems from not having walkable, livable communities. People live in detached homes and they drive to work and the grocery store and… that’s it.
There’s next to zero room for random events because travel becomes such a deliberate action. I can’t just pop into a cafe - first I need to find it and drive there.
Also our social signals are completely fucked up. Headphones and phones means that most interactions are off-limits. Probably a lot of these people do want to talk, but they’re not signaling it. And I’m not gonna be the one to bother a stranger.
To add, in walkable communities you are much more likely to be a “regular” at more places, since you are walking to the places nearby, and to share multiple regular places with other people. Walking 15 minutes to 30 minutes still keep you in about a 1-2 mile radius, which is pretty small and has a lot of overlap with other people walking. So you are likely to see the same people at the bar as at the gym or the coffee shop.
If you are driving 15 minutes to 30 minutes, especially if you get on a highway for any amount of time, you could be anywhere in a 15+ mile radius. Your grocery store and your preferred bar could be 20 miles away from each other, so not likely you will run into Jim from the bar in the cereal aisle.
It's more cultural than walkability. I've lived about 20 years in NYC but now spend months at a time outside the city as well.
In the US, in VHCOL places like NYC filled with upper middle class striver / PMC types.. everything is so fleeting & ephemeral you just don't have "regulars". You just feel anonymous. Everything is moving/changing all the time, expectations and trust are low. There is a lot of classism.
I lived in buildings 8 years & had neighbors on my floor who re-introduced themselves to me many times, somehow forgetting we've met. I knew their dogs names.
The shops I go 2x/week have 50-150% annual staff turnover and even the staff that somehow last 5 years barely acknowledge recognizing me. The staff who work in my building disappear without a trace one day. My condo board president introduced herself to me for the third time recently. We stopped having package pickup for a couple years because allegedly our staff & mail woman didn't get along.
Meanwhile in the small town I spend more time, I drive, but I am a regular at some restaurants that I go maybe monthly or less. Regular to the point of waiters sending us free drinks, or knowing the same waiter from 3 different restaurants he's worked over the years, being on a first name basis. I knew my last mailman by name and sent him a retirement card. I bump into the postal clerk at my vet. The guy who cleaned my chimney gave me a great greenhouse recommendation recently.
Backing up a sister comment on this thread: I've lived in SF and Chicago, both also as walkable as it gets for the US, and in both had relationships as a "regular," whether at a corner store, cafe, or the grocer. I remember our Albanian corner store guy in particular, who would comment on me gaining or losing weight. Our neighborhoods felt like a small town where we all knew each other (including the homeless!).
I live near New York now, and while I hear from friends that they find that kind of community in some faraway boroughs of NYC, everyone in Manhattan reports your profound and deep sense of alienation from their fellow man, though some with a positive spin.
I have not seen this alienating anonymity in any other part of the country, though I have felt it whenever I'm there. As there is no other place in this country even remotely as dense or with faster turnover (not even SF), I'm fairly confident Manhattan is unique (in this country).
Brooklyn the same as Manhattan though.
I think I'm just pointing out the urbanist utopia walkable American city NYC kind of already fails the claim.
But I'm pointing out that just because NYC fails the claim does not mean that the claim is wrong.
I think there's a goldilocks zone of walkable, at least for the purposes of this "urbanist-I-know-everyone-utopia" feeling – you could have perfectly walkable places that aren't dense enough (people wise), so they won't work. I'm thinking of Gorham's Bluff, Alabama, which is an attempted New Urbanist project. Or, you could have Manhattan, which is also walkable but frankly mind-boggling in its density.
No offense to New York. I sometimes find myself in wordless awe of its sheer power.
I mean, Manhattan is the most densely populated place in the entire country. I’m talking about communities designed around walkability, not places where people are so densely packed your local services are basically within the same block out of necessity.
Philadelphia, Chicago, and Seattle are extremely walkable for a large part of the city proper, in my experience. Whereas places like Phoenix, Orlando, and Dallas are sprawls where almost none of the city is walkable.
In a small town, it is easy to become a regular when there are only 5 restaurants and one vet. But in a proper "city" walkability is a major factor in community level.