From 2021 to 2024, the homicide rate in El Salvador decreased by 10 times [1]. Sure, torture is terrible in El Salvador's prison, as it is in Guantánamo's "prison", but public safety is the number one priority for any government, without safety any other achievement for a country is impossible.
Why would you trust these statistics?
I am very skeptical. The state said that they have solved the gang problem by putting “gangsters” in prisons like this (frequently, without due process as we have seen).
I think it’s far more likely that the state in El Salvador is structured like a gang, and the level of violence is the same as it ever was.
>Why would you trust these statistics?
Because i would think the Associated press makes a more or less professional job:
https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukel...
And the approval rating:
~91%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1264586/approval-salvado...
But maybe you have better data to counter that?
Look around the world at how many “landslide” election victories are won in places that do not truly have elections. Those with authoritarian intent are notorious for controlling the narrative.
All around the world, we are seeing many examples of consolidation of power through populism. Yes, populism is popular by definition. But history is not usually kind to those who consolidate power.
> And the approval rating: ~91%
In a country where one can be disappeared without recourse into a brutal prison system I have my doubts anyone can meaningfully collect something like an approval rating. I for one would not answer anything but yes to someone asking me if I approved of Bukele if I lived in El Salvador.
As arrests go up, crime should go down; whose left to commit crimes?
It doesn't mean everybody being arrested is guilty but if you have a say 20% accurate arrest rate and you run it over the entire population you're going to remove a large amount of criminals. Not a great way to live in general, but would lower crime outside of a jail.
>It doesn't mean everybody being arrested is guilty but if you have a say 20% accurate arrest rate and you run it over the entire population you're going to remove a large amount of criminals.
By that logic, why bother arresting anyone? Just shoot them dead. Who cares if they're guilty or not? That'll stop crime for sure, right?
Fun life hack: capital punishment for every misdemeanor solves 100% of crime!
I don't think anyone is complaining about putting those gang members in prison. The problem is the torture, not the imprisonment. Torture is simply not acceptable, and creating a society where such sadism is considered acceptable, is not going to give you a peaceful society in the long run.
> Sure, torture is terrible
Yep, a Government should never do what Criminals/Terrorist do, for example the death sentence, let prisoner being raped by others(unofficial-torture), official-torture in Guantanamo or targeted killings, the US that is.
This could also be due to the agreements Bukele reached with the MS-13 gang in 2020 [0]. Keep in mind this story came out over 4 years before the prison's existence was politicized in the US.
[0] https://elfaro.net/en/202009/el_salvador/24785/Bukele-Has-Be...
This is lying with data, giving Bukele credit for sociological factors that predate his administration:
Year Rate Total
2015 106.3 6,656
2016 84.1 5,269
2017 83.0 3,962
2018 53.1 3,346
2019 38.0 2,398 [Bukele’s inauguration]
2020 21.2 1,341
2021 18.1 1,147
2022 7.8 495 [start of gang crackdown]
2023 2.4 154
2024 1.9 114
2021 18.1 1,147 2022 7.8 495 [start of gang crackdown] 2023 2.4 154 2024 1.9 114
18.1 to 1.9 ...that is a 10x drop.
My point is that's not as significant as the 2x drop that happened in the four years before Bukele was even inaugurated. It's extremely misleading to look at proportions instead of actual numbers - you're lying with data.
I never said something about Bukele, but he made a additional 8x drop right? Also 90% of the people think he makes a good job...basta.
You know that Trump administration is paying millions of dollars to imprison some hundred persons there without due process, right? And is looking into expanding this right now:
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/trump-wants-deport-so...
>You know that Trump administration is paying millions of dollars
Billions would be better for El Salvador. But that's a "you" problem, I'm not you.
There is a reason he is the most popular politician. He has over a 90% approval rating. People don't care about the violation of rights of gang members when the alternative is having their family murdered and raped.
Who the fuck knows how popular an authoritarian politician actually is?
> While polling consistently shows that Bukele is quite popular in El Salvador, surveys also show a steady increase in fear of public criticism of the government — to degrees that sometimes match the president’s approval rating. 'There’s a sector of the population that feels better, because it’s true that we perceive more security, we’re no longer afraid of the gangs. Now we’re afraid of the regime,' says Ramirez. 'We see soldiers everywhere, police everywhere, patrol cars, and they’re arresting people.'"
Arresting every man in the country would plummet public safety issues in the US.
I propose we do this.
This is a deeply anti-American, authoritarian sentiment.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
>This is a deeply anti-American, authoritarian sentiment. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
Are you talking about Guantanamo or El Salvador? Because in El Salvador civilians had neither Liberty (not wander the street without fear) nor Safety (been shot).
Also i don't know why El Salvador should use the US or Franklin as a template.
However the US still has the Patriot Act, attacked Iraq and gained no Liberty nor Safety out of it.
To quote you
>public safety is the number one priority for any government
You blanket-declared that any/all governments have it as their number one priority, with no nuance I might add.
Additionally, are you somehow completely unaware that the American government is sending people to that country's worst prison, and that the current president has said he wishes to send American citizens there? This is why American values are at all being referenced here.
Nobody thus far in this conversation has been defending gitmo, the patriot act, or the illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq -- and personally I'm against all three. Yet you're creating false equivalencies, ascribing strawman views to others, and mostly avoiding any nuance to such matters as if the country's underlying corruption and dysfunction which enabled such lawless conditions is any better (which it might genuinely be, but such points ought be evidenced and argued, not declared).
Instead you've transformed it into something approximating: "now el salvador is safe and everyone is happy, there was no need for liberty or human dignity to be respected then or now."
Therein you make yourself out to argue in poor faith.
>You blanket-declared that any/all governments have it as their number one priority, with no nuance I might add.
No nuance needed, there is no single country who flourish when people fear every day for their life. Not being murdered is point number one for living beings...again no nuance needed.
>Additionally, are you somehow completely unaware that the American government is sending people to that country's worst prison
That's a "you" problem, not that of El Salvador. Fix your country without killing a million (for example) Iraqis....and btw stop calling people from other country's "aliens" fkn disgusting!
>Instead you've transformed it into something approximating: "now el salvador is safe and everyone is happy, there was no need for liberty or human dignity to be respected then or now."
Now you try to make me a Fan Boy of Bukele, and to be honest your framing is childish. There was no space for "human dignity" when gangs ruled the country, now it is at least a unwritten letter.
Gotta say, my man, you were the one making blanket proclamations about what governments must care for first. Yet you shy away from defending the principle.
>making blanket proclamations about what governments must care for first
Look, it's simple, safety first, freedom second. A dead man has no freedom, a living man has the possibility of freedom.
Can you explain this quote, because it feels to me like it’s the exact opposite of what standard government practice would dictate?
Everyone in a country with government gives up part of their natural liberties in order to form said government and create a civilized (safer) society. That’s the philosophy of government.
Perhaps there is something to be argued here about “essential” liberty, or “little temporary” safety, but the core idea seems nonsensical, especially in the context of a person not deserving essential properties of life because of a bad choice.
Pre-Bukele, El Salvador had a breakdown in civil society. Focusing just on homicide, it peaked at 106.3 homicides per 100k in 2015. For context, the "crime wave" America experienced in the 90s peaked at 9.82.
The April 24-27 2020 murder spree by gangs killed 77 people in a country of 6.3 million. Again, scaled to America's population, that's killing 4.1k people.
How would you compare torture to civil war AKA mass murder?
I would reject the comparison as a false dichotomy. The world's political systems can't just be bimodal distribution of ineffectual neolibs and self-styled 'strong man' autocracts.
I didn't ask to choose one or the other, therefore there's no dichotomy, therefore there's no false dichotomy.
I don't understand the question either. "Compare" in what way? Both torture and civil war are bad, but they're not similar or analogous.
How would you compare child abuse to famine?